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Omar Ha-Redeye is a Toronto lawyer, legal academic, and legal educator committed to access to justice and public service. He holds a JD from Western Law and an LLM from Osgoode Hall. He operates out of Fleet Street Law with a practice background that includes civil litigation, employment and labour law, health law, and technology law. Omar also teaches law and ethics at Ryerson University as an Adjunct Professor. In 2011, he was named one of the top 12 social media influencers practicing law in Canada and was presented the Diamond Jubilee Medal in 2013 for his contributions to society and professional achievements. In 2015, the Ontario Bar Association presented him with the OBA Foundation Award for exceptional contributions towards improvements to the legal system and public legal education. In 2017, Omar is receiving the Deans' Teaching Award at Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University.

What’s something you’re passionate about outside of the law?

Outside of the law, I’m passionate about being involved in the community. For me, that includes involvement in politics, in boards, and in a local CHC (Community Health Center). It’s a matter of being connected to society and to social causes. In a lot of ways, it’s one of the reasons I ended up in law. I wanted to be involved in making an actual difference, and in the things people were doing on a day to day basis.

How did you end up with law as a career?

I like to joke that law was my fifth career. I started out in nuclear medicine technology, then did health management, emergency management, public relations, and then finally law.

Ending up in law was in many ways a fluke for someone who came in with a science background. I never envisioned that I was ever going to be a lawyer, but I found that all roads led to law, as everything I did had a legal dimension. I realized very quickly that having a background in law gives you a deep understanding simply about the fabric of life. That's what got me intrigued in terms of going to law school and getting a legal education.

Part of the reason why I did more education is that people tend to plateau very quickly. You can master a subject or you can master a skill set, but an advantage of law is that nobody ever masters it entirely. There's always new cases and practice areas emerging, and I can never learn it all. I'm the biggest inquisitive “know-it-all” you'll ever meet, but there's always a huge knowledge gap in law and that keeps me going. What I find truly fascinating is digging down into cases and looking at the policy rationale behind why decisions are made. Conceptually, I love the practice.

What would you say is your biggest accomplishment and why?

Overall, it's yet to come. I refuse to acknowledge that anything that I've done so far is going to be my biggest accomplishment, because as soon as I do that I've now said that I've reach the pinnacle. I want to keep going, exploring, and learning.

One thing that I am proud of is teaching. I'm a professor at Ryerson, teaching law to business students. I also run the business law clinic there, as an instructor, where we service businesses for free in the community. It's a radical concept because we are giving business students, not law students, an opportunity to get their hands dirty with legal stuff, under the supervision of lawyers. As an instructor, I'm loving it.

Regardless of what I do going forward, there will still be a legal component to it, because law is important in any field and it has depth. I’m looking forward to new things that aren’t necessarily the traditional type of practice.

Do you have an example where you faced a challenge and overcame it?

I’ve faced lots of challenges. As much as I talk about the wonderful things in law, there's a lot of ups and downs and that's a part of it. I think the biggest challenge for me was that I had a car accident a few years ago. I had whiplash, back pain, and neck pain, etc. But the biggest challenge from that was that I had a concussion. The number one thing I value is my brain. “What do you mean I'm losing my keys several times a day? Or that I'm forgetting my postal code?” That was a huge challenge for me - the health issues. The reality is at some point health issues are going to catch up with us. And so, I think that has been a huge adversity for me. But in many ways it also motivated and encouraged me to focus more. To recognize and realize the things that are important to me - like my parents and my family. I focus more on exercising, eating healthy, and taking care of myself. Even though they were previously part of my routine, I see more value in them now. Ten extra billable hours a week is really not worth it if you look at what else you're missing out in life.

What are some things you wish you knew when you first started articling?

I think the economics of law isn't something most people in law school know - how law firms operate, how the finances operate, how it works as a business and the amount of nepotism there is in this industry. The prevalence of nepotism in law is something I struggled with conceptually, and it is a far more prominent and dominant feature as opposed to other professions. I haven't become bitter about it though. Instead, I push myself to work harder and to be better. Those of us that don’t come from legal families also have to learn to work harder, together.

Organizations like FACL really brings value because it provides us with the networks (of other lawyers, other professionals, other judges, etc.) who we get to build valuable relationships with. It also gives us a stronger voice when we want to bring those big picture objectives, such as improving the diversity of the judiciary, to the table and to make a significant impact. 

What is an example of the work you have done through organizations like FACL?

Earlier this year, I was in Ottawa having lunch with Professor Errol Mendes. We were talking about diversity and the judiciary, and quickly came to realize that over the past decade the federal government has been disinterested in hearing about anything about diversity in the judiciary. So, I contacted FACL and other diversity organizations, like the Canadian Association of Black Lawyers (CABL), the South Asian Bar Association (SABA) and Roundtable of Diversity Associations (RODA), and I was able to pull together a coalition to discuss with the Justice Minister how judicial diversity can be achieved.

The federal government released the new criteria for Superior Court appointments in mid-2016. Guess what? Our recommendations were included!

One of the recommendations that was included was that the advisory committees, which filters and reviews the applications, be diverse themselves. Those diverse members should understand what merit is in a broader context (which includes life experiences and diverse experiences). Working for advocacy organizations, dealing with racialized communities, and assisting marginalized populations, are very valuable experiences for a judge to have at some point in their career as a lawyer prior to their appointment. Our recommendations also included training - for people not of diverse backgrounds, and for everybody to understand “merit”.

Another recommendation was reporting numbers. One of the things that had never been done was to talk about how many diverse applicants were applying to be appointed. We were looking at the numbers in terms of judges the previous government appointed. Less than 3% of the judges were going to be visible minorities, which is insane in a country that has over 30% visible minority population.

We are glad that the new government is producing those statistics. When we look at the new SCC appointee (Malcolm Rowe from Newfoundland), we can see how transparent that process was. We can look at his application and see his philosophy (i.e., that the judiciary is the vanguard against the executive trampling over the rights of the citizens). If you have a judge that says that, you already know the type of judge he's going to be (i.e., that a judge willing to stand up and say to the government; or that this law you are passing is unconstitutional, as opposed to just deferring).

Those of us in the legal community have an enormously vested interest, not just on who's on our bench, but in terms of the highest bench in the land. That makes a huge difference in the direction of the law. This was a perfect example of how organizations like FACL can make those differences, because FACL comes to the table with a lot of credibility in saying, “We need to change and we want to help you change it.”

Given that, what kind of changes do you anticipate?

We want to see law schools provide produce their statistics. We want schools to reflect the population, throughout Canada. Our stereotypes previously (10 years ago, 20 years ago) about what Alberta was vs. Newfoundland vs. Ontario was are all changing. And this is a good thing. This is the Canada I know and love. Toronto is my hometown, and I love seeing its multiculturalism and diversity replicated in many ways across the country. We are at the forefront of diversity and inclusion.

I like to remind people that what we're doing here in Canada, or even just in our major cities, has a potential to be adopted across the world. This is relevant to our continent, and also in Europe, where they are struggling much more in dealing with immigration and refugees. Inclusion is where I see Canada being a leader in the world.

I understand you do a lot of work with access to justice issues. Do you mind speaking to that? What kind of projects do you work on and what is being done to solve current issues?

One of the problems is that we tend to easily look at access to justice as simply being a cost issue. The normal solution is to increase Legal Aid so more people can afford a lawyer, and we believe that access to justice is magically solved. I don't agree with that all.

I think that the access to justice problem is far more complicated than that. Part of it may be cost issues, where carving out some of these responsibilities to paralegals will allow people to accesslegal work more cost-effectively and more efficiently, for a fraction of the price they pay for lawyers. But that's just one small piece of the puzzle on the supply end.

Fundamentally, we have to revamp our entire system. We should change all the outdated procedural steps people are forced to go through, because it's insane how complicated the system is. There's no reason for lawyers in civil litigation to make a trip all the way to court, put on robes, go before a judge, and say to a judge “We're here for a consent order”. A consent order! We have to go all the way to the courts for a consent order, which is basically just read and rubber stamped.

It's these inefficiencies that adds to the cost of the client. It's not about the client not being able to afford the lawyer or the legal fees, it’s the system itself that is excessively financially onerous. Certainly, there are some promising changes - attorney generals are talking about digital court submissions, and digitizing the record systems. But let’s be honest, the legal profession is probably about 10 or 15 years behind the rest of the business world.

So access to justice not just about increasing Legal Aid, or appointing more judges. Those measures just replicate the same issues on a broader scale. If the system is fundamentally not geared towards efficiency, we need to fundamentally alter it. Not just perpetuate it.

What changes do you see in terms of that?

I don’t expect us to overthrow everything. But I do believe in a slow evolution for the better. It's about constantly applying the pressure, and making sure we're equipped with the tools and vision to make that difference. I organize the TechXpo conference through the Ontario Bar Association every year to try and educate the legal community on this. I hope people can realize that we all have a role in making this happen.

We are also facing a major stage of disruption and change in society generally. There is less employment opportunities and less stability for those that hold positions. The economy is also shifting towards a “sharing” one. Just look at Uber, AirBnB, and Alibaba. Everything is being completely transformed by technology, and law is not going to be an exception.  How it's going to be transformed is something we're still exploring. But I want to point out the incredible opportunities that exist in this field – where we can carve out new things and new careers that never existed in law before. I’d say it's time for us to be pioneers, even though we may not have wanted to be pioneers. And as much as I don't think I'm necessarily the pioneer in the field, it's nice to just be involved in those conversations.

Any last thoughts for our readers?

I would want to emphasize the value of FACL to law students and young lawyers.

I didn't have the luxury of coming from a law family. I joined FACL in my first year of law school, in the second year of its operation, and it was incredible. The stories that I heard from senior members of the bar that came to speak to us, and the relationships and friendships that I developed, blossomed into things that really built my career at so many different levels. It's the broader conversations outside of law school that are going to make a difference in your career. And we, those of us involved in these organizations, are here, ready, able and willing to give back. There are lots of wonderful people out there who will make the time and the effort for you if you reach out.

We recognize that the challenges that those of us come from diverse backgrounds in law are shared challenges, and those challenges directly relate to broader societal issues. We are in this together. We need more diverse people admitted to law school and entering the profession in order to make a difference and do things differently in law. I also cannot emphasize enough about how important and significant law is to the decisions that underlie our entire society and the entire fabric of our country. This is the challenge I would post to our readers, the big responsibilities that lie ahead of us.

Photo credits: Marcia Cho

On October 27th, 2016, a few students from the Diversity and Law Society (DLS) at the University of Calgary travelled to Toronto to attend FACL Ontario’s 10th Annual Conference and Gala. During the gala, each student had the opportunity to interview an inspiring Asian Canadian trailblazer within the legal community on behalf of FACL Western.

I had the privilege to interview Bindu Cudjoe. Bindu graduated from the University of Calgary with a Commerce Degree. Afterwards, she studied law at the University of Toronto. She articled and became an associate at Borden Ladner Gervais LLP before becoming a Partner at McMillan LLP . Today, Bindu is the Deputy General Counsel & Chief Administrative Officer at BMO Financial Group. 

Q. Sometimes in film or television, lawyers are portrayed to look or speak a certain way. Do you find that this kind of portrayal creates difficulties for lawyers who do not fit this image? If so, what are some ways someone can overcome this difficulty?

I don’t think I am a “conventional” lawyer and have had to challengethose preconceptions my entire career. First, own the fact that you’re different. Stereotypes are natural and can be helpful – they can help people classify the world. However, don’t pay too much attention tothem and never let them hold you back. The best way to overcome this difficulty is to never compromise yourself. The only thing you have in this profession is your reputation. You should never compromise who you are, or your beliefs to “fit in.” So it is important to know who you are and what your values are.

Q. Students are sometimes told it is very difficulty to have a work life balance, especially when they're first entering the profession. Has this been true in your experience?

When I began my career, it was easier to put up boundaries between my work life and my life outside of work. However, with the development in technology, it is not as easy to put up these boundaries since, for example, you can check your work email on your phone at any time. There is no perfect equation or formula to balancing between life and work, and it won’t always be in perfect harmony. However, life and work should not be pitted against each other. The legal profession is not the typical 8 to 5, Monday through Friday kind of career, so you have to take it day by day.  And balance may not happen over a day – think differently about your timeframes for balance – it might be balance over a week, or a month.

Q. What are some skills that you learned in law school that helped you transition into working at a law firm?

First and foremost, do not lose your curiosity. Your curiosity brought you to where you are today. It also most likely helped bring you to law school. This curiosity will help you transition into working at a law firm. Also have perseverance. School teaches you the study of law. During law school, you’ll have the opportunity to work in legal clinics and volunteer with student government. However, the practice of law can be very different. The actual practice of law can be messy, and there are areas that can be quite grey. You have to stick with it, even when the learning curve is very steep, and uneven, and even when you are trying to juggle competing demands.

Q. What advice would you give to students who are uncertain as to the area of law they would like to work in?

When you’re first starting out, where your career begins is often driven by opportunity and the economy. Certain things are out of your control.

However, a good place to start is to figure out the way you want to work. If you are uncertain as to the area of law you would like to work in, think about how you want to practice law. Do you like the idea of researching and writing long memos? Do you like going to court? Do you like meeting clients? Do you feel most comfortable in an office setting?  Does working in a high-rise appeal to you? Think about how you want to practice law, and ask yourself “what does success look like to me?” – the answer to this question is different for each person. It takes different kinds of people to do different kinds of work. Lastly, when deciding the area of law you would like to work in, approach it with an open and curious mind.

Photo credits: Marcia Cho

This is the second of three installments of stories, stay tuned for the last one!

On October 27th, 2016, a few students from the Diversity and Law Society (DLS) at the University of Calgary travelled to Toronto to attend FACL Ontario’s 10th Annual Conference and Gala. During the gala, each student had the opportunity to interview an inspiring Asian Canadian trailblazer within the legal community on behalf of FACL Western.

I had the privilege to interview Bindu Cudjoe. Bindu graduated from the University of Calgary with a Commerce Degree. Afterwards, she studied law at the University of Toronto. She articled and became an associate at Borden Ladner Gervais LLP before becoming a Partner at McMillan LLP . Today, Bindu is the Deputy General Counsel & Chief Administrative Officer at BMO Financial Group. 

Q. Sometimes in film or television, lawyers are portrayed to look or speak a certain way. Do you find that this kind of portrayal creates difficulties for lawyers who do not fit this image? If so, what are some ways someone can overcome this difficulty?

I don’t think I am a “conventional” lawyer and have had to challengethose preconceptions my entire career. First, own the fact that you’re different. Stereotypes are natural and can be helpful – they can help people classify the world. However, don’t pay too much attention tothem and never let them hold you back. The best way to overcome this difficulty is to never compromise yourself. The only thing you have in this profession is your reputation. You should never compromise who you are, or your beliefs to “fit in.” So it is important to know who you are and what your values are.

Q. Students are sometimes told it is very difficulty to have a work life balance, especially when they're first entering the profession. Has this been true in your experience?

When I began my career, it was easier to put up boundaries between my work life and my life outside of work. However, with the development in technology, it is not as easy to put up these boundaries since, for example, you can check your work email on your phone at any time. There is no perfect equation or formula to balancing between life and work, and it won’t always be in perfect harmony. However, life and work should not be pitted against each other. The legal profession is not the typical 8 to 5, Monday through Friday kind of career, so you have to take it day by day.  And balance may not happen over a day – think differently about your timeframes for balance – it might be balance over a week, or a month.

Q. What are some skills that you learned in law school that helped you transition into working at a law firm?

First and foremost, do not lose your curiosity. Your curiosity brought you to where you are today. It also most likely helped bring you to law school. This curiosity will help you transition into working at a law firm. Also have perseverance. School teaches you the study of law. During law school, you’ll have the opportunity to work in legal clinics and volunteer with student government. However, the practice of law can be very different. The actual practice of law can be messy, and there are areas that can be quite grey. You have to stick with it, even when the learning curve is very steep, and uneven, and even when you are trying to juggle competing demands.

Q. What advice would you give to students who are uncertain as to the area of law they would like to work in?

When you’re first starting out, where your career begins is often driven by opportunity and the economy. Certain things are out of your control.

However, a good place to start is to figure out the way you want to work. If you are uncertain as to the area of law you would like to work in, think about how you want to practice law. Do you like the idea of researching and writing long memos? Do you like going to court? Do you like meeting clients? Do you feel most comfortable in an office setting?  Does working in a high-rise appeal to you? Think about how you want to practice law, and ask yourself “what does success look like to me?” – the answer to this question is different for each person. It takes different kinds of people to do different kinds of work. Lastly, when deciding the area of law you would like to work in, approach it with an open and curious mind.

Photo credits: Marcia Cho

This is the second of three installments of stories, stay tuned for the last one!

This past October, our executives headed out east to attend the 10th Annual FACL Ontario Conference and Gala in Toronto. Needless to say, we couldn't pass on this prime opportunity to interview trailblazers and leaders of the community. Here to present the first of our three installments of stories: Constructive Conversations with Richard Wong. Stay tuned for more!

We were honoured to interview Richard Wong, the Chair of Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP’s Construction & Infrastructure Group, at the 10th Annual FACL Ontario Conference held in Toronto at the end of October.  As a 1995 graduate from the University of Toronto Faculty of Law with a passion for development and construction, Richard stayed true to his aspirations.  He followed his heart starting as an articling student at a boutique firm practicing real property and land development law and built that into his career with Osler today.  We are extremely excited to present his personal story and the lessons he has shared with us.

Q. Tell us about an accomplishment that you are most proud of and why?

One of my proudest career accomplishments is becoming Chair of the Construction & Infrastructure Group at Osler, a national team passionate about building major development and infrastructure projects including the Union Station Revitalization Project, the Bruce Power Nuclear Refurbishment, and various hospitals, power projects, and commercial and industrial facilities across Canada, to name a few.   I have always believed infrastructure to improve quality of life, whether in third world or first world conditions, and am very honoured and proud to be playing a part in this effort.

Q. So in reaching this position, what adversity or challenges have you faced, and how did you overcome them?

The truth is that my current position was not specifically in my sights when I started out, so the main challenge was to feel my way forward with my general aspirations to develop a practice that was specific and fulfilling.  For that reason, I will describe some more background about the steps that I took.  

I became interested in international development in university.  Part of that influence was from my father, a civil engineer who immigrated from Taiwan and worked in Canada for SNC, Canatom, and AECL.  My B.A. was in economics, and I was heavily involved in the international business exchange club where I saw the greatest need to be in countries south of the equator, so I brushed up on my French (I was born in Montreal), and also learned Spanish and Portuguese, to be better positioned to participate.

I articled in land development law at DelZotto, Zorzi LLP, a small boutique firm in the north end of Toronto.  I found that I preferred the front-end contract work, as compared to my litigation rotation, especially since development and real estate activity was strong at that time with the impending handback of Hong Kong in 1997.  I was fortunate to be mentored by Maurizio Romanin and Harry Herskowitz, two giants of the real property bar, and drank from the fire hose as there were not layers on layers of associates above me - one of the benefits of a smaller firm.  I emulated and absorbed and soon, they got me involved in various opportunities arose including teaching the LSUC’s real estate bar admission course which was very rewarding.  All of this experience was beneficial in confirming what a high-level land development practice was like, that I did want opportunities to work on infrastructure/public sector projects, and that for business reasons a boutique firm would be somewhat at a disadvantage in able to service that kind of work.

At that point, I started to wonder where my future was going.  Due to the scale and full service needs of such projects, it became apparent that larger Bay Street law firms were getting the work; however, I understood that they only hired from within and wanted direct experience in such projects, and so the legal headhunting firms I contacted were all very pessimistic about my chances.  I was disappointed, but knew that this was the direction that I wanted to go, and also got called to the New York State bar in the meantime to maximize my opportunities.  The breakthrough came when I opened up in confidence to a senior lawyer at my firm, with an entrepreneurial practice, for advice about my aspirations.  This could have developed into an awkward situation but, to my surprise, he mentioned that a law school classmate of his practiced in that very area and went out of his way to contact this classmate despite being out of touch for many years.  This led to a lunch with a partner at Osler in the Construction and Infrastructure Group and a further meeting with the other partners in that Group.

One thing that I now realize, looking back, is how quickly the practice of law was specializing and, with it, how important (and gratifying) it is to find people who genuinely enjoy an area as much as you do.  There are people who love tax, accounting, real estate, and yes construction, and when you come across someone with a real passion in what you practice in, and have the intellectual curiosity and creativity that go along with it, that is easy to recognize and want to select.  

However, there was a minor impediment – the economy.   While Osler was interested and would keep me in mind, back in 2001/2 it was not the right climate to justify and support hiring a lateral associate.

I decided to keep moving and took a position at Goodman and Carr, a very ambitious and entrepreneurial firm (despite its later demise), where I was encouraged to build a practice in infrastructure backed by my experience in land development.   While very encouraging, there was not a lot of direct experience in construction and infrastructure that I could draw from at the firm, so in practice it was harder than it appeared.    As a mid-level associate, single-handedly building a book of business is very challenging, but I had decided to take on that challenge because I saw it as taking one step beyond where I was towards my goal and so I attended numerous construction and infrastructure industry events and met as many people as I could.

Unexpectedly, Osler reached out to me after about a year and a half, with an offer.  I am very glad I made the decision to move again, as it has a great client base for construction and infrastructure project development and a great “one firm” culture while preserving a “small firm” feel in our group. 

The point of my story is that getting to where I am now was not a straightforward pathand it was shaped by people willing to vouch for me.  At times, I did not know where things were going to lead.  I had to keep pushing in the dark not knowing exactly how it was going to turn out, and most importantly not taking no for an answer.

Q. What would you say is the driving force behind your persistence?

Well, given how much I did not know back then, at least I knew enough to know that career was going to be an extremely large part of my satisfaction in life.   I was going to spend every day thinking about it, and if I was not happy with it, it was on me to change that situation.  I did not want to settle.  I do not know if I will categorize that as courage or desperation to move into the light.  I think this applies to all types of circumstances, not just in one’s career. If you are not happy about anything, I think you really owe it to yourself to find that area, place or thing that will make you genuinely happy. You owe it to yourself to stay true and do the best you can.

These days, there is greater fluidity in moving between different firms or going in-house, greater specialization, and more new practices opening up that did not exist when I started.  Organizations like FACL have grown significantly to provide more opportunities for networking than I ever had at the time.  You have to start from what your skills are and push forward to find a solution and never take no for an answer.

Q.  What is some advice that you would give to yourself as a junior lawyer?

I have two main pieces of advice that I want to share with my younger self.

The first is to find and cultivate your champion(s). To get ahead, it is vital to have someone who is where you want to be to recommend you and to talk about you in positive ways (and no, I’m not talking about my Korean mom).  That is what a champion does.  You need to be conscious of the fact that direct and indirect decisions makers talk about you especially when they are comparing different candidates.  Your champion needs to be armed to say more about you than the basics: there’s much more to it than just “Lisa bills 1,900+ hours per year” and many people believe that the numbers speak for themselves.  Not true.  You need a champion to recommend you and give others an elevator pitch about you at a qualitative level, and this is how I believe people end up getting ahead in the real world.  Those who have multiple champions to vouch for them become successful. It will take time, effort and investment to cultivate a champion who knows and trusts you.  And because law is continuously evolving and moving forward, you always have to cultivate the next champion(s).

The second is to be aware of and cultivate your personal brand.  Think of how odd it is to hear your voice on tape – now think about how you come across in your presentation, mannerisms, and what you say and write.  Edit that if necessary because people see you differently than how you see yourself.  Your personal brand is created by the everyday.   So you can’t just have one persona that you put on at a certain time when you think people are watching. That façade may not come across as who you truly are, and people can perceive that.  Whether it is imagining how people perceive you or getting honest feedback from people you trust, ultimately, looking at yourself from someone else’s perspective is invaluable.

Richard Wong - https://www.osler.com/en/team/richard-wong

Photo Credit: Marcia Cho

This is the first of three installments of stories, stay tuned for more!

Several weeks ago at our FACL board meeting, a few directors and executives discussed ways to deliver our message of diversity and multiculturalism to the greater community, beyond our fish bowl of lawyers and law students. After hours of brainstorming, we came up with an ambitious concept – to interview trailblazers in our community and allow them to share their successes and failures with us. We’ve since completed the first of many interviews to come, and so marks the beginning of our new project, the FACL Western Interview Series.

Watch the interview with Lilian here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AffugVkLeTk.

Our first interviewee is Lillian Pan, QC. Lillian was born in Taiwan, and moved to Manitoba when she was but six years old. It was there that she did all of her schooling, including her undergraduate studies and law school. After graduating at the top of her law school class, Lillian joined what is now Torys LLP in Toronto. She moved her way up the ranks, beginning as an articling student and making her way into the partnership over the span of several years. In the early 2000’s, she made her way west and joined Carscallen LLP as the firm’s first female partner.

Q. Can you share with us an instance where you faced adversity or hardships in your experience with the law and how you overcame it?
 
Being one of the few senior Chinese-Canadian women practicing as a litigator is unusual. But being the first is not necessarily pleasant. I don't say this suggesting that I had really unpleasant experiences in the law. I have not. It is not pleasant because when I entered law school and when I began practicing, I didn't meet people like me. When I say that, I mean visible minority women. It wasn’t hard in the sense that there was something terrible and I was being treated differently, but there was an “otherness” of being perceived as not the same as everyone else.  
 
I haven’t ever been out rightly treated in a different way because my use of the English language is such that no one would ever say “oh, she’s an immigrant woman and English is her second language” -  although both are true.  
 
In this sense I have not experienced the true adversity that I do see immigrants experiencing when they have difficulties communicating in the English language. As a child I was was subject to racism in school, so I understand that feeling (when you are treated as the “other”). I don’t let it govern my life, and I like to have a positive attitude. I do, however, see this “otherness” as an ongoing issue in a visibly multicultural society, the issue is just much subtler nowadays. This is why I am so passionate about mentoring. I have mentored a number of young women, including visible minority women, as I am concerned about the fact that a whole generation of young woman who are in the law are dropping out of law firms within five years of coming into the profession. The feeling of not getting enough support is an important reason why I keep sharing my experiences with women in the profession. To exchange experiences and help them understand how people can thrive is my way of giving back.
 
Q. There is always a struggle between what a client perceives as an ideal lawyer, and fitting ourselves fully into that box of how we should look and speak. What is your advice to us young generation lawyers on what we should be doing to counter this image?
 
Recently, I looked at the issue of the “bamboo ceiling”, a concept described in an American commentary about Asian American issues of discrimination. I wasn’t familiar with this concept, and came to realize that in America people have already coined a phrase for what happens to Asian Americans as they try to progress in their career and how they hit that ceiling in middle management coined as the “bamboo ceiling” (by Jane Hyun in her book on this issue). In gender equality issues we call it the “glass ceiling”, but here it is been coined as the “bamboo ceiling” relative to Asian Americans. It is a different issue in that it applies to Asian American men as well, but reflects the same type of “ceiling” problem that women experience with a glass ceiling.
 
Early on in my career, I absolutely refused to learn how to make coffee. I still to this day do not know how to make coffee. When there’s coffee being served at a business meeting I’m not the one rushing out to bring in the coffee. I did it purposely, because I don’t want to be treated as if I’m the back room person, sitting in the corner. That’s a small thing, but it’s an example where small things can make statements of purpose. Another instance is where often in my professional life, I would be the only female lawyer in the room. That’s quite common for me, especially in the areas of law that I practice. Thankfully now I have lots of young junior female lawyers who I work with so there are female lawyers in the room.  Of course, I also work with many young male lawyers. It is just that now there’s enough gender parity in the legal profession that there’s no reason to feel that you are relegated to a female bystander role.  
 
The role of Asian Canadian lawyers in the profession is also one of the reasons that I am so invested in FACL.  Having organizations like FACL is important. The organization creates the “milieu“ in which people can let down their hair, express their frustrations and find support. Support is one of the main things which helps people move forward, and if you can share your struggles with someone else who has encountered the same issues and get tips on have to deal with it, the frustration lessens. A group forum also engenders more positive responses. You are always better off when you have a voice, and FACL as a group can have a voice that others can listen to which perhaps an individual expressing concerns may not have.
 
Q. Seems that you have implemented certain strategies in voicing yourself and consciously projecting a certain image, would you have any to share with us today?
 
I certainly know that sometimes by being forthright you get labeled. I recognized that as a litigator you armor yourself when you go into the courtroom to act in the best interest of your client; similarly, in meetings you also have to put on a face as “I’m not shy”. So when I think I have to make a point, I make the point, and I’m not going to be sitting there in the background. Certainly I tried to be myself, and in being myself I felt the need at times to express myself perhaps louder than I needed to, sometimes to make a point, that I am not a stereotype of the quiet submissive Asian woman.  
 
I have purposely kept my last name because otherwise my husband and I would be Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I did not change my name.  I did not want anyone to be under any illusion when they met me that I am Asian or Chinese Canadian.
 
What I ended up having to do when I first meet a client, especially since I mostly deal with commercial clients i.e. in-house counsel or general counsel, is to be truly professional, and impervious to comments about how I look.  I try to find the human connection as well as be thoughtful, trying to find the touchstones the client and I have in common.  I do not golf so I don’t pretend to understand it.  I love food and that can be an icebreaker.  The key is to be authentic.  As well, I have been involved in “beauty contests”, not the type of beauty contests in the Ms. America way, but in the instances where you try to obtain a file by showing the client you understand his/her issues. That involves taking the extra steps to understand their issues, showing thoughtfulness and looking at extra legal issues and analysis that you might not normally do in a first meeting and being over prepared to discuss the legal issues. Taking the extra steps to look on a preliminary basis at your client’s issue before a first meeting always presents well to a client.

Q. You have held numerous roles across Canada from counsel to foreign clients, instructors at law schools, to directors of nonprofit organizations. What would be an experience you are most proud of and why?
 
I think distilling from all those experiences the role of mentorship is what I am very passionate about. In my practice of the law I have only held two working (i.e. paid) positions, as a partner in two different law firms. I was a student, an associate, then a partner at what is now Tory’s in Toronto, and then moved to Carscallen in Calgary. As part of what I have done in those firms, I have become involved in teaching advocacy at the University of Toronto Law School, participated in teaching a summer program offered by Osgoode Law School, and also participate in teaching at the University of Calgary Law School. All of those experiences and also sitting on boards coalesce for me into of what I have considered to be the role of advocacy – the idea of using the legal training you have to assist others. Out of all the things that I have done in the past, whether it was inside my firm or outside, I tried to get involved in mentoring. I think of it as our way of giving back to the community and in turn been given something that is greater than just whatever we do on a daily basis. You can make a really big difference in people's lives through mentoring. Whether I'm being mentored or I am mentoring others, the experience builds on important elements of my personal life and my life in legal practice.
 
Q. Is there a cause or initiative that you are currently super passionate about?
 
Yes, there is one that I am currently working on, partly because of FACL, and also because of my background. This initiative involves Calgary’s Chinatown.  
 
I was around when Justice Bertha Wilson did her gender equality report on the legal profession, and also when Judge Corrine Sparks did the visible minority women’s report on gender equality. I participated in those group discussions that lead to the reports. Because of my interest on issues relating to diversity, I recently became involved in assisting a loose coalition of Chinatown groups in dealing with the City of Calgary in relation to a land use application that will potentially change how a portion of Calgary’s Chinatown will be developed. In the course of my involvement, I got myself into a Chinese community I did not know at first. I didn’t grow up in a large Chinese community in Winnipeg, and am certainly not involved in actively meeting people who are leaders in the Chinese community. Now I had that opportunity to meet these people, I came to recognize that I too can make a contribution. My love of advocacy gave me an opportunity to assist and give back to a community that I did not know that well but have come to know well and I really enjoy being involved with people who care about the culture and heritage of Chinatown.
 
Q. What would you like to see in us (FACL) as an organization?
 
Because FACL it is so new here in Calgary, you have already started off doing a fabulous job in galvanizing and getting a large group of people together. I suspect it might be the nature of the profession in that there are not enough senior Asian Canadian lawyers around, but FACL (Alberta) should try to get more senior lawyers involved. I think FACL in Alberta can be an important voice for lobbying purposes, which it hasn’t done yet. It may be that once FACL in Alberta is more cohesive - as in when you have the involvement of a broad range of levels of experience, we can start helping Asian Canadian lawyers, and the profession by being more proactive. We have more ability as a group to influence policy or other issues that may be of concern to our group once we have the numbers. The next stage is when you look after the interest of FACL members as a group, because often a group voice can be heard and is heard more effectively than individual voices.
 
Q. Share something that you love outside of law?
 
I have lately become a convert and am crazy about professional basketball. My son plays basketball in high school and as a result I have learned to watch the NBA games with a more experienced eye. I understand many of the plays, the subtleties of the plays and have become familiar with the players. It is similar to my love of the law, in the sense that when I get interested in something I like to dive in and understand all of the types of plays, the strategies and the terminology.  
 
I have always thought that sports was very different world from the academic or professional world, but I have come to realize that a basketball player’s intelligence level is really important. The intelligent players can see the plays that can be developed, the holes and weaknesses of the other team. The strategies the players use in trying to get to the hoop is so interesting to watch, and a game of basketball has become an exciting intellectual exercise for me in studying strategy.  It helps that my son informs me about certain types of plays and I can replay it to see what he points out.
 
Q. Is there something that you think people should but don’t know about you?
您觉得您有什么别人应该知道却不知道的事情？
 
When most people see me, they never think that I am an immigrant. But I moved from Taiwan to Canada when I was young (age 6). My fluency in the English language misleads people to believe that I was born in Canada. They don’t treat me like an immigrant.   I can speak Mandarin fluently but
 
I have never studied in a Chinese school; I can’t write nor read in Chinese. Most Chinese people I encounter assume that I am fully literate in the Chinese language, which poses another problem for me. Because of my fluency in Mandarin they assume the opposite, that I can read and write Chinese. Unfortunately, I can only use Google Translate to communicate certain things. It is a pity I cannot write. When I was in Winnipeg, the local Chinese language school was opened when I was in my late teens, I was the oldest student there and only absorbed a limited amount of the written language. So upon first impression when one wouldn’t think that I am an immigrant, I believe if I told them that I am, people will think “hmm, very interesting”.  And that’s something that people should, but don’t know about me.  
 
本地人见到我的时候他们不知道我是移民过来的。但是我小时候却是从台湾移民到加拿大的。 我的英文讲的让本地人觉得我是在加拿大出生的, 所以他们对待我的态度不像是移民。我没有上过中文学校，不会写也不会念，但是很多中国人见了我之后就会认为我会念会说会写。我和他们沟通的时候是有问题的，我和他们说我可以用Google Translate,但是我不会写。这一点我觉得很可惜。在Winnipeg我已经是十几岁的时候他们才办的中文学， 而我在那个中文学校里是面我是最大的一个学生， 并没有学到很多。所以本地人第一印象看到我不觉得，不过我觉得如果他们知道我是移民过来，他们会觉得Hmm,这个人很特别。而这就是我的很多人不知道的事情。
 
Lillian Y Pan, QC | http://www.carscallen.com/our-people/lillian-y-pan/
Sheri Wang, Hansen Wong and Steven Ngo